Has anyone noticed that it’s usually the good guys who get the bad reputation, spread by the bad guys under the guise of “saving us” and “keeping us safe”?
Even the concept of a good guy and a bad guy goes against the simple truth that people make choices and have free will. If someone tells you someone is doing something bad, do you believe it just because they said it?
M.
25 Comments
I agree that most people can be quick to judge based on hearsay and rumors. Ironically, human nature tends towards prejudice, though we have the ability to rationalize. Personally, I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt, since most people fall in the grey area between “good” and “bad”.
Interesting question. I have stopped believing that all people are inherently good. I tried. And tried. There are good people; their intent and actions are good. There are bad people; their intent and actions are bad and usually harm other people. On a more superficial level, I now believe all words in the English language are relative. Poor to you and poor to me may mean different things. Poor to Americans means something entirely different from what it means to poor people in Africa or India or China. Good and bad mean different things to different people too. Free will gets a bad rap because it denotes taking responsibility for our choices or, sometimes, even admitting that we made a choice in the first place. We often act like a society of sheep; “just tell me what to do or what to believe and I’ll be fine with that, thanks”. I have learned to question everything I experience. Always, always… question reality. Reality may not be what you think you see or hear or read. m.
i agree that good guys do get a bad reputation…but it depends on the situation…take for instants…the movie with mark wahlberg in it…shooter…he plays a good guy but it was the bad guys intentions to make mark wahlberg’s character look bad…and it could happen in reality too…good and bad comes in many forms…no matter who you are or how old you are… people would do almost anything to get what they want by manipulating others…but without good and bad guys we wouldn’t be who we are…but at least i tried to your question out mark…
I do not believe in gossip, ever, mainly due to Socrates’ filter: truth, goodness, usefulness… if something told to me about a certain person is not 100% truth, and it does not any good and has no use… I am better without knowing
And about good guys/bad guys, we all make mistakes, some bigger than others and there are persons with a bigger capacity of forgiveness than others who hold grudges forever, so confusing, right?
you pose hard questions, mr. Hildreth!
I always question what most people tell me. I always question if a person speaks poorly of others. Good guy/bad guy—it’s contingent on what you perceive as bad or good. What I may find good, others may see as inherently evil.
This.
One of the most prominent examples is probably the Third Reich, where the jews got accused of all kinds of completely unrealistic crap and an incredible amount of people ate it all up.
Did you happen to watch Hitlerjunge Salomon? I’ve somewhat recently met the man that movie is based on.
He lives in Israel now, talks to tourist groups sometimes. During the WWII that man managed to survive the nazis by pretending to be a so called ‘real’ german boy.
He even went to their elite academy at the epicenter of the nazi propaganda.
Back then, so he confessed, he’d wondered, if, maybe, the nazis were right about the jews.
And that’s despite him being a jew, himself.
It’s creepy. We listen to what others tell us and even if we don’t want to believe them, even if we don’t like OR trust the people who, we know, are telling us obvious lies, we’ll still treat their victims as culprits.
So much to learn, so little time.
There is good and evil in this world, and the two are in constant battle for our own souls as well of the soul of our society. If you want to know who the good guys are pay attention to who the media demonizes and who they praise. It usually the ones that are demonized who are the true good guys.
A provocative post. Good and bad can be more similar than we expect, if boiled down to the barest essentials. I agree that the concept of good or bad goes against the fact that everything is about choices and free will. But I think the *why* behind those choices might better define the goodness (or badness) of the person or action.
BTW – love Little Life.
Looking at it from another angle, what if the “bad guy” thinks he’s doing it for a good reason? What if it is his “truth”? There are lots of different ways to see things…
i think good and bad aren’t always absolute concepts, especially when it comes to people’s ideas about who’s the good guy and who’s the bad one.
when we label someone as bad, it’s mostly because of our own ideological way of thinking, or the fact that we judge people as if they are just what we know about them, when human being is way more complicated than that.
that being said, i used to think there definitely are bad guys, but recently i’ve started to doubt that. now i think there are different levels of being conscious (of our true selves, our purpose, our place in the universe, …), and we all are climbing of a mountain of sophistication, only some of us are slower than the others. they’ve lost themselves, and forgotten what really matters and why we’re here. so they need love and guidance, instead of labeling and hatred; as lame as it seems, and as hard as it is in the real world.
a bit late for teen’s question but it’s better late than never.
well, let’s review your points (hope you guys have tolerate maximal number of comment’s chars here)
first, about the bad/good guys vs free will concept
if there are only people who make some actions accordingly to their free will, then bad guys appear not to be bad, don’t they?
they’re just people who want to achieve some goals, and you shouldn’t be astonished by their methods if these methods are effective
and vice versa, the good guys become just people without any specific reason to be defended from bad ones.
Remember, none of them exist
this logic is called moral relativism (there is no global bad or good, the measure is the goal achievement), but I doubt that was your original point
second, it’s more interesting why you question this
I can hardly imagine you think about yourself as about one of the bad ones. So, only two options remained.
are you one of those disguised good guys?
or are you that guy whom bad assholes try “to save”?
The answer you would accept as “satisfactory” depends on what side you are, Mark
zakuka: Hi
I’ll engage you if you don’t mind. 
Moral relativism doesn’t seem to be the point. Yes, there’s no truly objective definition of “good” or “bad”, but does that mean we have to let go of our own subjective morals? I don’t think that’s possible. What we should try to consider, however, is that other people may and probably do have a different definition for wrong than we do.
That gives us two conclusions:
One – you may think that someone is bad/wrong/insert random judgement, you may even act on that assumption, but it would be a mistake to view your own opinions as absolute.
And two – if someone tells you “that person over there is bad/weird/annoying”, remember that they are using their own subjective definitions to judge that person, while you may have judged the same behavior entirely differently.
Both conclusions are fairly obvious, but people seem to forget all about them when day-to-day life takes over. I won’t lie and say I’ve never forgotten them, myself.
And, as an added bonus, the things we are told about other people may be outright lies or even simple misunderstandings.
There does seem to be a tendency, in any case, for people who would (subjectively) be seen as ‘bad’ by most if all truth were to come out into the open, to be the ones who like to badmouth others. Whereas, people who would be seen as ‘good’ by many simply don’t have it in them to verbally tarnish someone’s reputation. Sadly enough, we seem to perceive others not the way we would if we knew the whole truth (which would be a subjective judgement, still, but at least it would be our subjective judgement), but the way we are told to see them.
Right or wrong, good or bad,is dictated by people of authority. As humans we all have that innate desire to belong… to be apart of something bigger. So if presented properly any situation can rally supporters for any cause. As long as there is a since of belonging, authority can shape and mold an individuals perspective of life…there for always giving a false since of free will.
An easy example of this is the countries we were all born and raised in. My self America, others Canada, India, Russia, Mexico… the list goes on and on. What is right and normal in everyday life in one country can be a moral affiance in another. But with each side thinking they are right and the other is wrong. (I.e women showing there face’s public… little girls going to school)
This is not limited to just countries this applies to companies, religion, foundations anything that brings groups of people together to make a community. These then can then be used to rally against other individuals or group.
A simpler and more personal example… I work with a multitude of mixed cultures. A man at work was telling me that in his country they eat dogs and rats… not out of starvation but for a delicacy… my first reaction is moral disgust. I was raised in a culture where dogs and animals have rights they are loved and part of families. For me eating a dog is morally wrong… rats… just plain digesting. In my mind this man is a bad person for doing this… But is he?? My opinion is based off of what I was taught by authority, my parents teachers, bosses the mayor all the way up to the government… there for I have NO free will in this situation or any situation for that matter. My beliefs and opinions have already been formed by my experiences in life and the people around me.
The only way an individual can have complete free will… is to have no outside interference what so ever… there for never belonging to a family community or country. As this will never happen I do not believe that there will ever be complete and total free will…
Weather or not anyone out there agrees with my opinion (kind of hope someone does :p cuz that will fulfill my desire of belonging) this was a fun topic to actually contemplate… anyone that actually read this entire post thank you. This was my attempt at expressing my free will… or as you might have it…a false since of free will. :p
what’s a good and a bad guy anyway? we’re just humanbeings, we tend to be both good and bad depending on situation…
Kinda going through something similar right now, but that’s a different blog.
The best thing to do is step back and clear your head, look at the pros and cons of each person. Looking at the situation with a clear head lets you see that sometimes people that are good for you are also bad for you (and vice versa).
Casual friends tell you things because that’s what you want to hear.
good friends will tell you things because they think they know what is best.
old friends will tell it like it is and usually have your back without thinking about it.
Oooooo, layat, you had to bring the government into it. I am super-sensitive since there are so many political commercials on right now. I agree with most of what you said. We do all want to belong and will go along with the crowd (or what our friends say) to do so. However, I believe all humans have free will each and every day of their lives. Beliefs may be tainted by what we were raised to believe, but we get to start fresh with our choices every morning. These choices can be as simple as whether to get out of bed ay 6am or noon, whether to go to work/school today or whether to beat our children because we were beaten as children. We have literally thousands of people in prison right now who are there stating “they had no choice in what they did”. We also make choices whether we believe what we are told simply because we are told that. It is easy to say I have no choice about what is said on the news, but if I take the time to investigate, I may find other truths exist. Most humans are apathetic and unwilling to make the choice to investigate what they are told. It just takes too much work.
Back to mark’s original question, do you believe what someone says; because they are in a position of power, because they are a friend, because we love them? I believe moral relativism exists, but cannot accept the tenet that “the end justifies the means”. With that said, people do lie to accomplish things; take politicians, for example. Families tell us things to protect us (from whom exactly?) Ex-boyfriends tell us bad things about our current boyfriends, so possibly we will see them in a better light than when we broke up with them in the first place. People are notorius for “harmless” gossip that destroys people’s lives. Again, and as always, what is the motivation behind the behavior? If you know what motivates someone, then you make your own determination as to whether to listen to that person in the future. It’s a hard line, but not all people who care for us are doing things in our best interests.
Well said Mellissa… I like your explanation and mine. I do agree that everyone has a choice in life, its the consequences of those choices people have to learn to accept… but I also fill its a life style that has lead them to those choices… bear with my scenario :p I’m a sucker for these.
If a mother is poor and does not have money for food to feed her child then what option in her mind does she have? desperation can cloud her judgment into believing stealing food is her only choice. Me and you can sit here in a clear state of mind coming up with alternative ideas… food banks…shelters ect… but we can never ever ever put are selfs in her state of mind and thinking… we can only contemplate.
Now the courts will tell us this mother is a bad person she broke the law, she must pay… and the courts will make her face the consequences of her actions. But this is where people like us.. or mark with his question “do you believe what someone says; because they are in a position of power” (in this case the courts are the position of power).
With in each person there is a scale of morals, good one side bad the other.(this balance is molded from there own life’s experiences there own cultures or moral relativism ( new word for me :p) … no two people will ever have the same scale) So what side does your internal scale tip to with this scenario? Is this mother guilty of the crime? Yes she broke the law… Is she a bad person for feeding her child? No…She was morally obligated to care for her child. Should she pay for the crime? to an extent Yes but not severely…
Am I wrong in my opinions of this situation? You the reader might disagree with me… mark he might be thinking something totally different then both of us. But this all leads back to what I was trying to say in my original post. The experiences and influences in each and everyone of are life’s is what makes this internal balance, this so called internal scale of good and bad. I’m not saying that people should use this as an excuse claiming they had no choice in there actions there is always a choice. But I do believe it is used on a daily bases by each and everyone one of us to make are own choices in life and to Judge other people… Just because you have a choice does not not mean its free will… it just means the choices you are choosing have been molded by the people and experiences of your life.
There is no bad or good, there is only the perception you have of bad and good. This is almost like “If a tree falls in the forest…” every individual will have a different view point based on a set of norms they were either taught by their parents and teachers or by lessons they learned living in society. I don’t understand how the concept of good guy and bad guy are against free will, whether you believe the person that told you someone was doing something bad or not you are exercising your free will and your right to choose. Good question by the way. My friend and I were on the phone about it for a couple of hours.
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Is there good and bad people? Yes. The bad people are the ones who tell you things like there are no good and bad people.
layat, i agree with you whole-heartedly, until we reach the point of defining free will. For me, free will = choice. My possible solutions to a problem may be clouded by my past, but i still have a choice. i was abused as a child, but i chose to live my life differently (than the people who raised me, than what society expects of someone who was abused, etc.) and not abuse my child. The woman in your scenario had to choose how to feed her child. One of her choices was to seek out solutions to her problem that she was not aware of. That could have led her to food banks, etc. We are always more than our pasts or our presents for that matter. life is exactly what i make it. that happens by the choices i make today that affect my tomorrow. I may not have a choice in what happens to me in my daily life, but i always have a choice in how i react to what happens to me. what is free will if it doesn’t mean we have choices in how we behave? I think we are closer to agreement than the details allow, but thanks for a wonderful, intelligent discussion!!! m.
anonymous: right you are. let me get my pitchfork.
i would like to add that we do have good guys…those who helped others in times of crisis and bad guys who on this torrid morning of september 11, 2001…the terrorist attacks in new york city…the twin towers and ground zero is living proof that there is bad in the world…but we could do our part in making the world a better place…and your music is a jewel to that matter mark…you’ve made the world your very own…it troubles me to even think of these things happening in the united states…the place where drems could come true…
this post goes into the whole concept of good vs. evil. there are religious aspects, ethical ones and legal ones as well.
rudy: uh-huh, except that those terrorists think they’re the good guys.
And even if someone’s helped someone else in times of need, that doesn’t mean they can’t be an asshole on a personal level.
So I’m not sure where that leaves us, because, sometimes, not calling a certain action ‘bad’ is impossible. But then again, that’s because it’s bad from my point of view. Logically speaking, though, there is no such thing as ‘good guys’ and ‘bad guys’, not really, because judgements are made in the heads of people and people tend to judge differently.
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